• January 10, 2021
  • minutes remaining
    • Calming Anxiety and Getting Back to Creativity in times of turmoil and stress

      Matt Pelosi Interview

      Interview with Matt Pelosi from 'Cyber Pr' With Ariel Hyatt

      Transcript of Interview below.

      To watch the interview live click here.

      My Example

      In today's interview we'll get through all of the craziness going on right now as artists, and this is really important to me because I actually get writer's block like every day. So it's gonna help all of us artists to get over some of our creative humps here. So, introduce yourself a little bit about what you do. And then we'll go into some topics here.
      Hi, my name is Elisa Di Napoli and I am an artist, coach, and therapist, also singer, songwriter, and drummer. I specialize in helping artists with specific issues. Sometimes it might be a problem with performance anxiety, maybe sometimes it's a problem with getting things done or getting over writer's block.
      So writer's block and anxiety. it's hard to get stuff done anyway. So, obviously, we're in the states where it's like, crazy turmoil, okay. And it makes me as an artist, you know, it, it kind of blocks all that creativity. It's like, We're worried we're worried, we're worried. And, you know, I gotta go out afraid to go out, you know, I gotta take care of my family stuff. And it's just hard to be creative. When there's so much going on, you know, the anxiety pops up. In the past, I've been able to lean into it and write about actually what's going on. But I know you probably have some really good tips for people right now. And anyone with anxiety in general, to how to tap into the creative, creative process, when there's so much going on around us. So love to hear what you got for that stuff.
      Yeah, well, it's not going to be possible to feel creative when when you are in a fight or flight mode. Basically, when your fight or flight mode, If things are as they are now, in an uncertain space, so to speak. You know, there's a lot going on. And if you spend all your time worrying about what might go wrong, you are not going to be in a creative space because in order to be creative, you need to be somewhat relaxed. And relaxation is the opposite of being on the verge of a panic attack,
      So what I'm saying is that the first thing we need to do is to realize that sometimes you might not actually be fully aware, you may be feeling some, some symptoms, for example, your current pulse rate might be very high, you may have some tension, you may feel agitated, you may have a headache, maybe you're irritable, or you're hyper alert, or you can't concentrate, or maybe you can't sleep, I mean, these are some of the symptoms of anxiety, this list is not exhaustive, but you know, these are typical and so this will tell you that there's a problem you need to become first of all aware of: okay, I'm getting anxious, I'm getting stressed. And then the second stage is reflection. So you need to ask yourself, okay, what, what's triggering the stress? Is it for example, thoughts about the past? Or the future? You know, "if only I could have done differently' this sort of thing. Or is it thoughts about the future? Then the third stage is whenever I've become aware of what's triggering this, then it's about challenging your automatic negative thoughts. So asking yourself, okay, is this thing that I are imagining, or thinking about helpful? Is it likely to happen? And then come back to the present moment. Because right now, in this moment, You're not in real danger. So and you ask yourself, okay, well, what would I do if This thing should happen? And if you don't have an answer for it, then it's time to let it go. So you're gonna ask yourself, okay, can I change it? If you can't change it, then the only option is to accept it, and let it go. If you can change it, then you can focus on what you can do. And just one small thing, yeah, what's the first step? What's the first action you can take? So transforming the worrying into problem solving. All of this needs to happen in conjunction with physical relaxation Because if your alarm center of the brain is activated, and it's basically going off and saying Danger, danger, danger before you can do even all of this, the first step is to have a relaxation technique that is going to help you with switching off the fight or flight, so you're stopping it. The three main ways that I would suggest are very useful, are first, you can actually engage in aerobic exercise. So aerobic exercise means, you know, it could be running up and down the stairs, sometimes it could be doing jumping jacks, it could be dancing, it is important to get your heart pumping, Exercise can trick the brain to think the danger is over, we have fought the enemy and now it's over. So that's one thing you can do. That really helps if you can exercise. The other thing, is diaphragmatic breathing: Basically breathing into your belly, your mouth is closed, that's very important. So you just use to the nose, and you are breathing in for the count of 4, then you stop for a couple seconds and then you breathe out on a count of eight or longer. So the point is, the outbreath needs to be longer.
      This has got to do with the amount of carbon dioxide going in and out of your body but basically, you've got to breathe this way for at least five minutes that is going to help prevent any kind of panic or anxiety attack. And it's going to defuse it if you have one. And then finally, the last thing is engaging in relaxation activities. I use self hypnosis but it could be mindfulness relaxation. And there's also something else. I often use an NLP technique that's very useful for anchoring a state of calm. So quite a lot of stuff.
      Yes, a lot. I love the first thing that you said though, it's so important the awareness of it, that's something I wouldn't have even thought of, kind of being aware that you're even anxious or scared or something, you know, something's wrong. And I love like, the size that you get, like the rabbit heart, right? And, you know, just all of a sudden, you went up, like chasing thoughts, and it's, you know, it's so hard to create, because you're worrying about what's gonna happen tomorrow, what might happen tomorrow, what happened yesterday, I mean, and, and I love that, that primal instinct of fear, right? Like that base of fear that we have. So as an artist, too, I had to go through that phase of, kind of realizing that all that stuff up, there is bs to be like, wow, like, hey, like, this is actually what stopped me. And it's the same thing that saying, You can't write today, you can't write a good song, you can't start writing that song. And that's the actual thing that I have to be like, Whoa, you know, hold on a second. And that that first word of awareness, it's literally the most important part. And the present moments like everything, that that is everything is out, stop the, the, the worrying about the future and about the past. And you're just like, hey, if there's something I can control, now, I can do it with a clear space, rather than you're running around about what could and couldn't, and might, and shouldn't, you know, so that is very important, guys, if anyone has any questions about that stuff, let us know. It couldn't have been said any better, you hit every angle of that. And I think, especially with the stuff that's going on. Now in America, it's, it's, it's challenging. And like you said, I don't think it can that I think that sort of situation where you can't control it, right. But you can have a voice in it. Um, you know, I think that, instead of worrying about it happening, I think you can find a voice in it, right? Like you can write about how you feel about it. And I think then the creativity comes therapeutic now.
      Yeah. Because I think one of the most useful uses of art ,of any kind of art, whether it is writing music, or it could be painting or writing a book, it doesn't really matter, but it's to put your emotions through the art. So when you feel anything, rather than trying to avoid, actually, the idea is to allow yourself to feel it. But put it through the art express yourself through it. You know, make a painting about it, write a piece of music about it, sing your heart out express yourself. Yeah. Because then it doesn't stay inside, it goes outside of you actually probably helps other people as well, at the same time.
      That's the thing too, is that it's so hard to think like, Well, can I actually do something about what's going on with everything, government and these, these mass raids or stuff, it's like, well, as long as you actually can, you know, we tend to some were actually lucky people that might be able to even if one person hears it, you know, we're still we actually can do something about it. And that, that helps me anytime anxiety comes up, because I get a lot of thinking out. So I realized that well, I can actually share some of what I'm going through with people through music or through anything, whether it's an author or a podcast, that stuff, our lane where we can speak to people, and also learn from people too, because when you share sort of what you're going through you, I feel like a lot of people will relate, and then they'll give you their side of it. And you might learn something from metal. So I think that that's like what you said about taking the right action. It happens when you're in that present space, not an anxious space. And I know you wrote a book, which is awesome. Very, very cool. I wanted to touch on that there to see because I don't want to shift into that hole. Okay, we're still in a pandemic, right? Obviously, live shows are a thing but we're not off the hook, right like we still can perform And it's actually easier to perform now. So everyone that's in this meeting is probably like, Oh, I want to live stream and I hear it all the time, I'm free to how do I even do it? I'm scared where people gonna? Do I look fine? Do I sound fine? And it's such a common thing. live streams everywhere. So I want to talk a little bit about how, what do you think and help people to be confident enough to do live streams? Because I don't know how long we're gonna keep going with a live stream might be a long time. So is there any advice you can give people for live streaming?
      Well, yeah, I mean, there's many so many things that you could say, I think the important thing is always mindset. You got to start with the right mindset. Of course, it helps to have some practice, for us to have the right tech to try and not have to stress out at the last moment, thinking, Oh, did I get the microphone Right. You know, all practical technicalities. I would suggest you also do plenty of rehearsals, you can pretend you are live, you know, like, there's software where you can record yourself and it goes on to Facebook, or YouTube, but it only goes into your channel. So you can go look at yourself and go, Okay, how does that look? You know, is there enough light? How does it sound? But once you've figured the practicalities out, then I think one of the most important things is to think about what makes you tick, what makes you feel relaxed. Okay, let's start from from thinking, Okay, how are you feeling when performing normally? You know, are you actually nervous even when you are live? if we were allowed to play in a bar, you know, would you feel relaxed or not? Because if you feel that, then then ask yourself, what was different about video? I mean, really, you can imagine whatever you want. Remember that your imagination is very powerful. Whatever you imagine, you tend to actually make real, your mind listens to what you say to yourself. And whether it's negative or positive, it's going to believe it. So it is much better to talk to yourself, imagine positive things, imagine what you want, rather than what you don't want. And so for example, for me, what helps me is like, right, but this might not be you, right? Because it's different for everyone. But ask yourself, okay, what, what makes me feel relaxed. And for me, when I think about a live stream, I think, Well, you know what, I'm just talking to Matt here. I'm talking to Matt. And that's it. And I'm thinking, Okay, he's my friend, we were talking about something like you could be in a pub a bar. You know, it doesn't matter. And this is not even about me anyway, that really distracts you from from the real, important subject, which is the song, which is what you're trying to express. So the message is the most important thing. People want to feel connected, to feel connected to you. They want to feel that emotion. So if you can focus on your own on the emotion of the song, then then your audience can also do that. If instead you're thinking about your hair, or how you come across, people cannot connect to the song they're just thinking about your hair. This person is really, really nervous.
      Yes, it comes right through. Yeah, 100%
      And you don't have to be perfect either. It's okay. Because if you do make a mistake, then people think, oh, okay, this person is not easy to relate to. I think if you're on ice queen, or a robot who always gets it right. People might be thinking they're not easy to relate to.
      Agreed. I it's something that helps me too, is uh, we were mentioning we were talking before about. You mentioned Steven Pressfield's 'Word Art'. And he talks about resistance, I was always gonna show up no matter what. And before live shows I was a drummer too. Don't get so nervous, right? But then I started to realize, okay, this stuff's gonna show up no matter what, that that's gonna be, it's gonna come up, and it's gonna tell me Oh my god, what if I mess up? And I'm like, so what if I mess up? You know, Okay, I'm gonna pick up the dumpster, you have to start again. So I would expect it right, I would expect the anxiety and that way I should be aware of it and not driven by it. And that would help me to just be like, okay, it's gonna pass the second you kind of get into what you're doing. Um, I just feel like it goes away, you just have to be present with what you're doing. And it's like writing a song to as a producer or anything like a engineer, like, if you're trying to perfect that one little piece of it, that whole idea, it's done. No, it's never gonna get there, you're never gonna lose that emotion cuz it's almost too perfect.
      Yeah, I'm a drummer, as well. And one of the exercises, that has really taught me a lot is about practicing the pocket. So it's like you're practicing being in time and you keep playing the same rhythm for a very long time. And, and the reason, you know, apart from the fact that this will make you really tight in terms of pocket. The other thing that's really good about this is that it's teaching you how to be mindful, because what will happen is that after a while, your mind will start wandering, and I'll start thinking about stuff that's got nothing to do with the rhythm, right. And your mind will come up with negatives so this is a very good time to practice noticing, like becoming aware of things like: I'm getting distracted and thinking about thinking about something else. And then, you know, worrying about not being very good or whatever. And then you can practice bringing it back to the rhythm in this case, right? But this can be applied to any other instrument or any performance because during a performance, you know, I used to be so nervous, and I was constantly worried about Oh, God, will I forget my words? What if I forget? what Is that person thinking? Oh, my God, I'm not good enough. All right. And the thing is, I had to bring myself back. possibly many times. Okay, back to the song back to the present back to the emotion back to the emotion back to the emotion. It's annoying, but in time it gets easier. Yes. Even if you made a mistake, it's like, okay, it's okay. Let's go back to the song back to the message. And I and I think that can be helpful.
      Absolutely. No, absolutely. That thing of just coming back to the moment, breathing helps me to if anyone, like you said, it is a breathing, mindfulness, that word is everything, like mindfulness is my thing to have. I was talking to one of my friends, yesterday, who gets constant anxiety about writing songs, I never get burned out. And I'm like, honestly, sometimes I just sit I take four deep breaths, I count one, and count two on the way out. And it's like, almost like this space opens up where I'm like, Ah, you know, it just it just kind of pops away news come to that moment. And then the emotion does the bonus of it can come out. Mindfulness, sort of like meditation stuff. I read a book. When I was going to school for music, they recommended this book called The Power of Now you've probably heard of it, right? Just Just the present moment. And that's going to come up a lot whenever you're an artist, and you're looking to get past writer's block, like that present moment stuff. It's said a lot for a reason. Right? It's, it's, it's so important, like every second of it and you're gonna get we're gonna get distracted. But like you're saying, always come back. always come back. It's, it's part of it, you know, it really is worth it. Absolutely.
      Another thing that I think comes up a lot is the judge the inner critic, saying you're not good enough. Why even try, just get a real job? And it might be that this might be your default state of being when you're thinking about that quite a lot. So I think it's important again to be aware of it. Rather than taking it seriously, you stop believing in the voice, so to speak. And also I find that there's some exercises that can be very helpful to, to kind of stop thinking that. These exercises help you move from the analytical side of our brain to a different space, which is a creative space, which is not really encouraged in our society, we are encouraged to be really cool and thinking that in a very rational sense, and everything needs to be good. But that really kills the creative because because to be creative, you need to be free to play, you need to know that there will be time later for changing for deciding what goes and what stays. But at the beginning, you can't start with the judge. So Try free writing, take 10 minutes a day and go ahead. Don't worry about grammar or punctuation. Just write anything that comes into your head and forget about the judge.
      absolutely. That journaling that free writing helps a lot. I'll do that too. just rewrite two pages, I'll do just two pages free, right? Doesn't matter if you weird, crazy, same thing the best. Because you're just you're training yourself not to judge it correct. To just not judge it. whenever it comes up. Keep going. Yeah,
      I would say don't read it. when ready, you can go back and reread, but I'm not reading or judging, just really to find little random pearls or something might have come up that inspires you. And f there's anything like that, you can take it and put it in a folder. And that can be your inspiration for a song. But you know, if not, that's fine, too. It's just like, another place to find beautiful tools, which you're likely to use later.
      But you have so many techniques for that, it's important to have more than one too, because sometimes that a bad boys can get really smart. And find a way around your techniques. So it's having that list of them. It's like having a battle plan almost for anything for the live show. And for the anxiety for the writer's block. All that stuff of breathing, journaling, all that stuff. Exercise, I love it all. You got to kind of have that battle plan on, I wanted to also talk about your book, because that's another massive. I love the title of it dare to be seen, right? So
      where does that come from dare to be seen is to me, as far as I can mean a lot of different things. I love that. I just want to talk a little bit about that book.
      Dare to be seen is really at the heart of the problem because if have performance anxiety, you're scared of being seen. Because when we are seen and we are in a vulnerable state we can be rejected, and that hurts, and no one wants to get rejected. So, you know, it's it's about realizing that it's okay, it's normal to be afraid of rejection. It's just in built in us if we didn't have this, you know, wouldn't be where we are because as a civilization, we you know, survived because we were in tribes and if you were thrown out of the tribe, you could die. So it's pretty serious , you know, to be rejected evolutionarily. But then it can get blown out of proportion. it's about exactly that, It is about daring to be vulnerable, daring to show who you really are. And the right people will appreciate you, you know, when you don't try to gain the approval of everybody. Don't try to be liked by everybody because even, you know, even chocolate ice cream is not liked by everybody. And so it's not about everybody, it's about you try. So it's about, you know, the moment that somebody really gets your music That's a profoundly healing moment. Because then you feel seen and accepted and you belong, you know, with the people that matter. And the people that don't like you they don't matter. And you know, the moment that you try to be liked by everybody, it's like you're in a prison you are even if you get liked, then you have to keep this thing up where if you do the wrong thing, they might stop.
      awful. Yeah, awful. I love that. The prison idea that it's and that's, that's the expectation, and it's not even our own, like unrealistic expectation. It's like we think others will think and that that'll stop that vulnerability is, it's so important to just even start a career. And I know you have scripts on here, I want to hear a little bit about that, too. Because I think that word vulnerability is like everything could come starting a music career, a book, anything.
      Yeah, before we get on to that there is another element. approval. Yeah, sure. But actually, what really matters is self approval. So a lot of the time we, you know, we project onto other people what you are afraid of. You may be afraid of judgment from others. But if you dig a little deeper, it's actually you judging yourself. And that's, that's why I need to have these external validation. If I don't get it, it means I am not good enough, right. But actually, it's the other way around, you're never gonna get the external validation until you validate yourself. I am gonna choose to praise myself now, no matter what my parents, no matter what the teacher , no matter what, no matter whatever they said, You know, I now choose to praise myself to recognize I'm worthy of love, and acceptance and love, you know, I am worthy, not because of what I have done but because of who I am. And this is my gonna be unfamiliar at first, you're gonna think, Oh, this isn't good. This is not doesn't sound like me. And that's just because you have kept repeating to yourself throughout your life, that you're not good enough. So of course, it's not. So it's gonna be good to persevere. And you've got to really choose it, you know, and it takes time. But when you start then it doesn't matter what other people think anymore.
      That's self approval. Right? That's the most important thing. Yeah, most important thing. It's just a game of perfection. Perfection. Is everyone a favorite song will never get done, either. Then that will ideas gone? It's just do you think quantity over quality is important when it comes to music? Do you think getting the raw idea is more important than perfecting? Well, okay,
      so there's one thing, you know, I think we need to distinguish perfectionism, which is, like doing the best we can, from putting out quality work. So perfectionism is just a coping mechanism for avoiding rejection, but nobody is perfect so it's a losing game. So it's much better to focus on only doing your best because you know, at the end of the day, we want to feel good. we are not just here to work. So we want to express ourselves, and we want to express our emotions. And we want to do it in a way that is as accurate as possible. Right? So it's like, again, it doesn't matter whether it's a painting or music, but what you really want is to express a feeling and so the art is there to give shape oto what needs to be communicated. So, first, the first step is to, like I said before, explore without judgment. You're not thinking about what you are doing. You've got to be totally free. Just see what comes up. So that's stage one. And then stage two is okay. What do I, what are the ideas that I really care about here? What do I really want to hone and make as clear as possible? And as close to what I really feel what I really want to communicate, okay, this isn't it. You don't want to overwhelm yourself with things either, you know, you've got to choose one thing at a time. What I'm going to focus on, okay, this now, I focus on this piece of music, and I do my best to portray how I feel, okay? up until the point that it starts to feel uncomfortable . In that moment, stop. Do something else. Don't worry about it. Allow your subconscious to figure it out on and try and do something else and then you can go back to it. When you're ready. Maybe even do something completely different. So we got a question, the best way to start songwriting, we kind of touched on that but let's answer that question I want to hear. Just right from the start. What do you think,
      well I mean songwriting, there's so many ways you can start a song, because you can start from the harmony or start from the rhythm. You can start from the lyrics. And I think you can start from the title. It really depends what you are fond of. What's your favorite way, of course, some ways are more apt for beginners, and some are more apt for experts. So, for me, specifically, I start with writing lyrics, just because that's, I started writing poetry. So for me, the text is the beginning of the song, most of the time. And so, I like to start with a word. You can even start with a prompt you can even go random, for example , typewriter. You can do this as an exercise, and just write down for 10 minutes all the words that come to your head that have got to do with a typewriter, but focusing mostly on sensory words so like visual things you can see things you can hear things you can touch or smell, because that's gonna keep you away from cliches, you know, try to avoid thinking and feelings is, it's kind of better to show not tell yeah so if you get your focus on sensory words, that's what you want.. And then what you could do is get another word something completely different. And that could be your lens. So, say that you have picked a completely random other word and maybe it's racism. Okay, so you're gonna write about racism, through the lens of a typewriter and those words that are connected to typewriter. actually I think somebody wrote a song about racism, through the lens of a tree. Another example was someone who wrote a song about love through the lens of a house. anyway so this is a possibility, it is not the only way though. On the other hand if you're an instrumentalist, and maybe you play guitar really well. Well, maybe it's better start with harmony so just using chords or a chord progression .A progression doesn't need to be complicated, the best songs can be, four chords. So just get a good progression, and then allow yourself to sing a melody but with no words. So just kind of just think about riffing on the harmony. begin with the melody without thinking of words and record yourself, record it, because they will go out of your head. Later you can go, Okay, what does this sound like? what is, the emotion behind these chord progressions? Is it sadness? Is it happiness? What's the emotion that I get when I hear these chords? And then, and then there could be a different way to construct a song. You can also you know then change the rhythm, you can go modify the speed or the style, but at the end of the day the most important thing is that the song needs to be about something you care about, you know, it needs to be something that you have an emotion about. So, you know, don't try to sound like anyone else. There's plenty Rhianna in the world , that is enough.
      You want to be you. Yes, 100%. But I like we said to. I used to do something they still do it because object writing, how you're like take a word. Are you looking around the room you see like guitar you start writing about the car, and maybe like change the perspective, like, what's the guitar see, you know like, really cool way to start a song that again won't be cliche people listen to that. Hmm. You know, it's a. And then the sensors, of course, the sensory five senses are really really important to love that. I hope that helped Gary Yeah. Awesome. We had another question and we'll know best ways to be noticed and get your music heard. I want to kind of segue into what you said to I think getting known as. I think it that's sort of a marketing question also, but I don't think the marketing works, until we saw able to do what we were just talking about where you're leaving your Sonic footprint right you get the song is you it's not Rihanna it's not Justin Timberlake it's you. That makes all of that home, getting her thing so much easier because you might not get the 1000s and 1000s and 100 1000s of views and plays yet but the ones that you do get resonated so well. And like you said that's your tribe you you really want to shoot for your tribe, not the masses because not again not everyone is going to get it. Not everyone's going to get you or your idea so that pursuit is just kind of meaningless but I think that that's more of a marketing question I think the best way to be noticed again it's just be yourself. And then the marketing comes in to get you hurt but if you have any other tips on best way to be noticed or get heard
      to be authentic. So many years I kind of wasted time thinking I have to fit in with this particular genre, But if you're just in it because now it's hot and everybody's listening to it you may not notice, but the fans are not gonna be really fans of your music they're fans of the fad that's happening at the moment and then when you then later go actually you know, I'm not really into this, you're gonna lose those fans because they're gonna take off.
      that doesn't work. You got to be courageous, and you know I think it's because, first, it's really hard to get anybody's attention. And like you said I'm definitely not an expert. So I don't really know the answer to how to get your music heard. It's, I find it difficult. I don't really know how to do that very well I'm more about making authentic art. Yes. As an artist, so that's kind of my expertise, getting things done and performing in a way that makes you feel authentic and good, but like you said, I do think that you do need to build a following that's based on your dreams. Yes. So think about what are you really committed to. What is your real commitment, and only what what is really important to you. And this is something that requires a little bit of introspection you know just asking yourself what really matters to me. Sometimes it can be helpful to think about what other people get from being with you ... you can ask others, you know if I was having a really open conversation,with someone what would this person get from me? What is unique about me? And for me, you know, I know that really matters to me is truth, my truth, of course, and connection. want to connect, I want to connect at a deep level that's who I am. And self expression. And so that means, expressing who I really am. Then, then my energy is gonna be behind my songs performances, and my communications with my fans. And so then the person on the other side is going to see that. And it's going to go Oh, I like that, or no I don't like that. And the right people are gonna support you and that's so valuable because at the end of the day, you don't need millions of fans. You just 100 superfans 100 people, really. That's enough.
      Absolutely. I think that's I think that's more important than anything. Because if you're going to go and make like those cookie cutter pop songs which again there's no i'm not saying that's a bad thing if that's what you want to do. That's fine, but if you're going to start creating music. It kind of doesn't work that way. You're going to post up because even tying into social media and stuff right. Chances are if people like your music they're going to like a lot of what else you do what you're about. I just find that to be true a lot, especially working with a lot of clients here. That's why we kind of look for like the target market for a certain artists because chances are if they like your song they're gonna like likes certain things that you like like say spirituality or meditation stuff like that, you know, and if you're posting a lot of that stuff organically. You know, you're gonna be a fan of you, not so much your music and that's that's the deep fan that you want that super fan. And again, you're you really do only need 100 of those remote cookies. You know I don't know you know I don't know, I just know that if you do listen to some music a lot of it will be the same and it's almost like people are competing. If you're going to be competing down a lane that there's a lot of it like that. Really jammed up lane it's going to be really hard to stick out. So, making your own stuff making stuff that you, I think is just way way way more meaningful and I feel like you'll have an easier time navigating through if you're just trying to do exactly what everyone else is doing. And that's sort of what I mean by like cookie cutter is just all your following rules based on what other people are going to think about your music where you come from a place of your truth i think that that the best music kind of comes from that place. And then the marketing side I think so much more easy to do because you have that story behind it. So,
      I think when you are young it can be difficult because they're like, Who am I? and it really can be hard to know who you are. So it's good to be a bit of an exploration first, you don't have to know yet you just explore different styles you know maybe I just make a jazz song today, and tomorrow I try a rap song. And then once you find your voice, then don't be afraid to really, really tell people yeah this is what I'm just gonna stand for, because people are attracted to that more than necessarily just music.
      Yes. And you don't have to change and that's sort of me too. Don't change. What you're about when you know like that's what your value is explored you know that you don't want to change that. Just to get the views I don't, I don't think that that would be the solution I think the solution would be find the people, you know, don't, don't try to change the sounds, to make it work for everybody. I would say find the people that it does work for. That's where that would come into play. We're about to run out of time. Anything else you wanted to say before we go.
      Um, well I guess the last thing is, you know, the best songs come from your unconscious.
      a process of almost digging deep, finding the treasure underneath things you're not even aware of. And that's why it's so important to not judge and that's why it's so important to be, you know, exploring and to not censor your emotions because it might be that you find something you don't like or don't understand. But trust your process. It's coming up. You need to talk about it, because that's, it's gold like stuff that weirds you out.
      Yes, 100%. It can't shy away from that stuff that's where the good, the good stuff. So, thank you so much, we, we had a awesome conversation. I actually am a fan like I'm gonna go get, I want to go read your book really awesome. I spent a long time studying about, like, all this stuff because writer's block was so, so bad for me in a depression so I know it's such a common thing so I hope everyone can kind of make so much from this conversation so thank you so much.
      If you want to grab some freebies. Absolutely. Just head on to tinyurl.com/podfreebies. And you'll get a bunch of freebies and one of them is going to be my book but you're gonna have to open your emails otherwise you won't get it.
      Thank you so much guys I'm gonna write that in the I'm going to read that link in the post on this. So, if you guys love all what we talked about. You can go and get the book and some freebie is and there's a lot of really good stuff. I know you're saying stuff about like warm ups for like gaming and stuff like that so stuff too. So, I hope everyone got just as much as I did from this so we will see you guys next week. Thank you. 


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